Stoicism and CBT: The Ancient Operating System of Modern Therapy

An Interview with Scott Waltman, PsyD

Scott Waltman, PSY.D., ABPP, is a practicing Stoic and international cognitive behavioral therapy (CBT) trainer. He is a board member for the International Association of Cognitive Behavior Therapy, and the Academy of Cognitive and Behavioral Therapies. He is coauthor of Socratic Questioning for Therapists and Counselors: Learn How to Think and Intervene Like a Cognitive Behavioral Therapist, The Stoicism Workbook, and the forthcoming The Rescuer Trap. He lives in San Antonio, Texas.

Dr. Waltman will also be the co-host of The Philosophy of Love and Relationships, a virtual event on Saturday, October 25th at 1 PM EDT. We’ve gathered insightful authors and psychologists to explore how to foster healthy, fulfilling connections with everyone in your life—from friends and family to colleagues—without compromising your core values. This event is free to register, but we welcome donations. It is through the generosity of our attendees that we can continue to offer programs like this; we invite you to contribute whatever amount you feel the experience is worth. Can’t make it on the day? Don’t worry. A recording will be available to all that have registered.

What first sparked your interest in CBT, and how did that path lead you to Stoicism?

My first interest in CBT came from seeing how fast exposure therapy worked. Early in my training I was psychodynamic and I had friends who were behaviorists doing exposure therapy, and their patients were improving at rates I could hardly believe. So I started learning exposure therapy and loved it. My first experience with cognitive therapy was actually on an REBT team. While a Beckian CBT therapist might focus on evaluating the truthfulness of your thoughts an REBT therapist trained in the methods of Ellis will focus on your non-acceptance.

From the perspective of REBT, when our preferred externals become demands we suffer. This is highly compatible with Stoicism. I then cycled through years specializing in each of the major CBTs including ACT, DBT, and Cognitive Therapy. I developed a zest for learning everything I could that could help my patients improve. There was so much to learn and I loved it all.

My first exposure to Stoicism was about 15 years ago and actually from Donald Robertson’s first book on the philosophy of CBT. I stumbled upon it almost by accident while preparing a lecture on the history of CBT. Since then the two have sort of fused together for me. When I read the ancient texts I see elements of modern CBT and when I read modern texts I see ideas rooted in ancient Stoicism.

Your work sits squarely at the intersection of Stoicism and CBT (Cognitive Behavioral Therapy) What do you see as the single most critical, practical concept from ancient Stoic philosophy—the “operating system,” if you will—that a modern CBT practitioner uses every day, even if they don’t explicitly call it Stoic?

The early CBTers like Ellis and Beck really focused on the Stoic notion of meaning making. The idea is that it’s not just what we experience but how we judge our expectations that guides our interpretation and experiences. Bringing this idea into modern therapy revolutionized the field and helped countless people. But I think the most important element is actually the idea of flourishing or Eudaimonia.

Therapeutically what this means is lasting happiness is found in building a good life where you are living in accordance with your values. So many people are miserable in a cycle of chasing short-term and fleeting enjoyments. CBT often involves helping people escape a paradigm of short-term gain long-term pain and instead turning it around to do the difficult thing in the short-term to have a better long-term. This is 100% Stoicism.

What is the fundamental difference between simply asking questions in therapy and engaging in genuine Socratic Questioning? Can Socratic questioning ever be too challenging or abrasive for a client, and how do you temper the philosopher’s rigor with the therapist’s compassion?

The fundamental difference is intention and curiosity. Socrates wasn’t an interrogator, sales person, or lawyer. He taught philosophy through dialogue. He said philosophy begins in wonder and so he would ask questions to help foster curiosity (wondering about things). So even Dr Aaron Beck when I worked for him as one of his trainers disliked the verbiage of challenging your clients beliefs. The goal is something we call collaborative empiricism, meaning and egalitarian and cooperative investigation. We’re teammates. I’m not trying to disprove your beliefs, I’m trying to use dialogue to understand where you’re coming from and then expand that point of view together.

So the interesting thing is while the ideas of REBT are more in line with Stoicism than Beckian CBT. The methods of Ellis were bombastic and confrontational. Beck was much more gentle and collaborative in his inquiry. I’m lucky to have foundational training in both parts.

From my perspective the most important element to a successful Socratic dialogue is honest curiosity and an open mind. People can tell if you have an agenda and it’ll make them defensive. If you can be truly curious it’s infectious.

In Stoic philosophy, the pathe (often translated as “passions” or destructive emotions) were viewed as errors in judgment that needed to be uprooted. In contrast, modern psychology often seeks to validate and regulate emotions. How do you reconcile the Stoic goal of eliminating destructive passions with the modern therapeutic goal of emotional regulation and acceptance?

I learned a lot about Stoicism and Emotions from Margaret Graver’s book. As a trauma therapist we talk about natural emotions and manufactured emotions. Natural emotions are a part of life and not maladaptive. That doesn’t mean we should let our emotions make our decisions but they should be honored and allowed space. Manufactured emotions stem from our judgments and are often not helpful.

If Socrates were alive and practicing CBT today, what contemporary “vice” or common cognitive distortion—perhaps one amplified by modern technology or social media—do you think he would spend the most time challenging through his famous method?

Socrates was most interested in helping people overcome their conceit of knowledge, or rather their ignorance to their own ignorance. Around the 2016 election Facebook added an ignore feature where you could mute your friends you might not agree with, without having to unfollow them. Very rapidly large sections of the population fell into echo chambers and self polarized to extreme views. I think Socrates would have a lot to say about that.

But I think he would actually most want to address the modern day Sophists who cosplay as Socratic. There’s a lot of people who say they are just asking questions but aren’t actually seeking learning and he would have some questions of his own.

Both ancient Stoics and modern CBT practitioners aim to help people live better, more fulfilling lives—one through eudaimonia (flourishing) and the other through symptom reduction and behavioral change. In your professional view, what is the most common mistake people make when trying to apply Stoic principles to their everyday stress, and what is your most practical, one-sentence piece of advice to correct it?

CBT sometimes gets twisted and distorted into positive thinking, which doesn’t actually work. People say well if your thoughts impact how you feel, then just pick positive thoughts and you’ll feel positive. I think the Stoics would have a different take, I think they would say life doesn’t have to be perfectly positive to be good. Life is full of joy and pain, but it’s worth it. Accepting the pain and participating in a fulfilling life means you can experience the joy as well.

Do you have a favorite quote that you use?

When you wake up in the morning, tell yourself: the people I deal with today will be meddling, ungrateful, arrogant, dishonest, jealous and surly. They are like this because they can’t tell good from evil. But I have seen the beauty of good, and the ugliness of evil, and have recognized that the wrongdoer has a nature related to my own - not of the same blood and birth, but the same mind, and possessing a share of the divine. And so none of them can hurt me. No one can implicate me in ugliness. Nor can I feel angry at my relative, or hate him. We were born to work together like feet, hands and eyes, like the two rows of teeth, upper and lower. To obstruct each other is unnatural. To feel anger at someone, to turn your back on him: these are unnatural.

Marcus Aurelius, Meditations book 2

I like to use this quote to talk about the power of expectations. If you hope that everything will always go smoothly you’ll have a lot of disappointment. If you recognize that the usual annoyances of life will probably always be present, you can prepare yourself to not be devastated or distracted by them and instead focus on what really matters.

Another quote I like to use is actually from modern Acceptance and Commitment Therapy authors Giorgio Nardone & Paul Watzlawick:

Ironically, it is often the very attempts to solve the problem that, in fact, maintain it. The attempted solution becomes the true problem.

When we try to live our lives in a way that is not in harmony with nature we often find ourselves creating problems for ourselves. A lot of times we try to create solutions but they’re actually illusions of control or avoidant strategies and those become the actual problem. if I’m not facing my problems head on, and instead coming up with some creative solutions that are forms of avoidance, those avoid its behaviors become the actual problem. This is why Stoicism is so powerful, people learn to not be afraid of how they feel instead they choose to follow behaviors which are guided by their values and virtues.

Where can we find you and your work?

You can find me on Substack where I write about CBT and Stoicism. You can also find my books on the publishers’ sites: The Stoicism Workbook: How the Wisdom of Socrates Can Help You Build Resilience and Overcome Anything Life Throws at You and Socratic Questioning for Therapists and Counselors: Learn How to Think and Intervene Like a Cognitive Behavior Therapist.

I also have a mental health meme Instagram page for my own entertainment purposes: https://www.instagram.com/socraticmethodcbt

What question would you like to leave us to think about?

What can modern CBT learn from ancient Stoicism?

What can modern Stoics learn from CBT?